I have seen a lot of posts recently on some anti poly websites which basically consider Polyamory as nothing more than swinging by another name, this was a post I wrote previously on this topic.
I see a HUGE difference between an emotionally and materialistically monogamous couple getting together with other couples for sexual purposes
and
a couple opening up their relationship to one or more people to share their lives sexually, emotionally and materially.
Swinging by its nature is about change and variety, it is supposed to enhance the marriage of the couple by giving them an alternative sex life but keeping their home life entirely separate.
I have only known one couple who tried swinging and they did break up, swinging wasn't the reason though, the reason was she was sick of the marriage and wanted out, desperation makes people consider things they might not normally consider just to make their marriage exciting again. So it was more the symptom than the cause.
I do know a few single people who have had connections to the swinging world and from what I recall, what you would get is a great many of the wives in the kitchen chatting together whilst their husbands were upstairs, The consensus was that they had no interest in it themselves but their husbands would just have an affair if they didn't and they would rather see what they were getting up to.
I don't know 100% because I have not been involved personally with swinging but from what I recall from the various conversations, is that swinging seems more male led and dominated and Poly seems more female led and dominated (though that might upset the Patriarchal folks, the stats don't lie). When women want something to work it works, when they don't, it won't work.
So like everything, it depends greatly on the people (especially women) involved.
If Poly (or swinging or anything that dramatically changes the nature of a particular marriage) is used as a sticky plaster/band aid for a marriage already failing I would say work on your marriage first. If either partner is falling out of love with the other one then Poly will not help. If it isn't something that both people want and/or something they have always intended for their lives (openly, I hasten to add - saying, I always wanted to be polyamorous and so five/twenty-five years into my monogamous marriage with Jackie, I admitted it to her, does not count!) than it probably would be doomed to failure.
If the Primary feels like s/he is being pushed into it, it will fail, if the secondary partner is only going into it because s/he likes the husband/wife (but not poly) or s/he thinks it is something cool and fashionable because it is on HBO, it will fail.
I have never heard about a scientific survey about poly but it would be of great interest to me to be involved in a research study (my scientific brain is going just thinking about it) but you do run the risk of it not being taken seriously by the scientific establishment, after all, what do you consider a successful and healthy poly group? Those who have been together 5, 10, 15, 20 years plus? Is there a standard time line for 'successful'? What if you interview 200 poly families, who you consider successful and ten years down the line they have all divorced? As a scientist, the better option would be to follow a number of couples over a number of years monitoring them every year to check how happy, stable and functional the family are.
You also run the risk of poly people themselves not caring for any conclusion you draw, for example, if you admit ALL poly situations you will likely have those saying 'We are not like that because we are FLDS/Christian/Patriarchal/Egalitarian/polyamorous/bisexual/open/closed/whatever.
In other words there are so many variables that you can either choose to involve everything (which would mean that some will disregard how meaningful it is) or narrow it down, in which case it won't actually show the full scope of polyamorous groupings and therefore it will be scientifically useless.
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I have a LOT if swinging experience. My husband and I participated in swinging for about 5 1/2 years. In that time we met many, many other swingers both from our location in New England and other places in the country and around the world.
ReplyDeleteYou make some assertions about swinging that are very inaccurate. I think you may want to rethink your comparison for the points you are trying to make about poly using swinging since your swinging information is very inaccurate.
You start by opining about the nature of swinging as keeping the rest of your life entirely separate. Some people do this. But many also include their swing partners in their circle of friends. A bbq at our house would have been about 50/50 vanilla and chocolate friends. We know many people who do the same.
The notion that swinging is male lead is absolutely false. The notion that women are merely defending against cheating is, frankly, insulting. That we are so weak and spineless that we have to pander to our men's vile nature to keep his is just not the case.
Swinging for women is as much about variety, friendship and fun as it is for the men. Who the play dates are with and everything else about it is decided democratically. Often times swinging is an opportunity for women to explore their bisexuality.
I am actually chuckling to myself as I think back on the last swing party I went to. The images I saw and was part of belie your presentation of the reticent women just pleasing their husbands! I wish I had a video.
Anyway, I agree that using something like swinging or poly as a band aid for a failing marriage is a dumb idea. But you are way off base on your comments about swinging. So it makes for a very poor comparison.
Cheers.
S
Hello S,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the comment but can you not realise that your own particular experience with swinging might be different from the people I am talking about?
In the experiences I talked about, it was the women who entered/pushed for swinging, I know of at least one woman who was a happy SINGLE female in the swinging community, it was she who said many of the wives were in the kitchen and THEY said that they were not interested so much themselves.
There are many types under the sun, I am talking about a section of a community, I know there are exceptions however.
N
One poly group operates with the maxum: Every woman should be able to marry the good man she wants. They live that by allowing the women to decide whom they want to marry. Many of their women decide that being another wife of a very good man of financial substance is a smarter choice than taking a chance on a never married young man who is starting out in life.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about sex so much, as forming stable, supportive families where women can raise their children in security.
Swinging isn't about forming families, bearing children, or stability. It's about recreational sex.
The common element is that the men have multiple sex partners. In swinging, the women do also. But the two are ABOUT entirely different agendas.
You have one swinging friend yet feel informed enough to comment on what swinging is *by its nature?* Your choice of words leads to a far greater than your one friend and those she tells you she knows.
ReplyDeleteAs an afterthought I ask myself what the men are all doing upstairs by themselves whilst the women are playing housewife in the kitchen? Especially since in my experience, swinging is NOT always bi-male friendly.
S
Ah ah ah. Your friend is a golden unicorn (aka single swinging female.) She is an uncommon beast indeed and would certainly have had a different experience than most of us.
ReplyDeleteI am sure there is every configuration under the sun. But you seemed to be attempting to speak to what is *common to swinging* not what is common to this woman's klatch. I think your conclusions are wrong.
That's all.
S
S,
ReplyDeleteI did not say she was my friend, nor did I say that she was the only swinger I knew, in fact, it is just that she was the only single WOMAN swinger.
The men and the two couples I know (I was only thinking of one particular couple but I know another couple fairly well who are swingers also, I had forgotten that they were swingers because it really isn't a big deal to me) have different view points, full of issues which are irrelevent to this post, which was about the fact that introducing another person into your emotional and material life is far more difficult and complex than inviting someone into your bed (even if you throw a bbq friendship in the mix) being couple-fronted in swinging is not a big deal and is probably the expected norm, being couple fronted in poly is painful and destructive.
Unless you have experienced it you might not know the difference but believe me, I do.
The single woman swinger was sex positive, independent, adventurous and quite experienced in the recreational sex hobby and it was NOT her observation, she wasn't insulting the wives nor was she trying to justify herself or her sex life, it was what she was told by the wives in the kitchen themselves, this was THEIR reason for being there, I am not under any delusion that they are the only wives in the sex parties, obviously some wives are upstairs having sex.
I have enough knowledge about swinging to know that single men are not exactly encouraged but single women are...why? Because as you say, they are UNCOMMON beasts in the recreational sex lifestyle, it (swinging) is of FAR more interest to men than to women. I am completely at a loss as to why you would want to deny that just because it is not YOUR experience?
This does not mean that the gender disparity isn't there, it just means that it isn't part of your personal experiences and possibly you are to close to the lifestyle to see it objectively.
I just went onto a national swinger website.
Huge gender bias.
Men seeking women = 5,135
Women seeking men = 339
This wasn't/isn't a Poly vs Swinger debate you can find that here though:
http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2010/05/polys-vs-swingers-stereotypes-head-on.html
There is no need for your defensiveness, I haven't got anything against swinging.
N
Hello Kemp.dale,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment.
Yes Poly is different from swinging, they can crossover sometimes though.
There is nothing wrong with swinging in my mind, I just wanted to point out that some people might approach Poly with the same mindset they approach swinging and if they do, they are going to cause a whole lot of hurt!
N
I am not being the slightest bit defensive. I merely pointed out some comments which you made that were inaccurate in my experience using inadequate information. If there are other people reading your blog nodding their heads, I thought I would give them more to chew on.
ReplyDelete"Unless you have experienced it you might not know the difference but believe me, I do.": This gave me a little side chuckle to myself . I am not sure why are assured that I haven't! Holy, assumptions, batman!
But that was not my point. My point is that you make several assertions that are not true universally as if they were. Instead of citing a very small sample set, thus lessening your credibility to discuss weighty universal comparisons of poly and swinging, you chose to take a very small sample set and use it as if it were universal. THIS is what I object to.
"Swinging by its nature is about change and variety, it is supposed to enhance the marriage of the couple by giving them an alternative sex life but keeping their home life entirely separate."
I don't see "my friend thinks that this is what swinging is about." But this is what swinging was about *by its nature.* I think you are
a. unqualified to make this assertion based on your experience, and
b. wrong for a great number of swingers. Can a great number of swingers have a different opinion and still have this be the "nature" of swinging?
You had the good grace this time to admit that your sample size was small before making the statement
"what you would get is a great many of the wives in the kitchen chatting together whilst their husbands were upstairs, The consensus was that they had no interest in it themselves but their husbands would just have an affair if they didn't and they would rather see what they were getting up to."
You chose to use the word "great many" and "consensus" after "swinging world." Not my friend's group.
Again, if this were the case for a "great many" of the swinging world and that this was the consensus among us, then I would think have thought I would have at least SEEN it. But I have not.
Again, here. You did not say, among my pals. You said::
" is that swinging seems more male led and dominated and Poly seems more female led "
If it were significantly enough "more" male led, enough for you to use it in your arguments, I would think someone who was very experienced in the life style might have seen an inkling of it.
I don't care what your views are of poly. I don't even care if you use swinging as a counter discussion for pretty much anything. But if you are going to talk about the PoV of one small group, then do THAT. You simply don't have the information to speak to the swinging community as a whole.
There are a great number of books on swinging. And you could probably think for a minute more about the statistics that you quote because signing up for a swinging site does not a swinger make. Lies, damned lies and statistics. If you were interested in making an *accurate* comparison, those are two thoughts for you on how to think your way to better information.
So to be completely clear:
- I don't particularly object to your comparison of poly and swinging. Not super interested.
- If you are going to make a comparison, you should use either accurate language or accurate information, particularly if you are going to sort of play holier than though in he process.
Cheers
S
Thou! Not thought!
ReplyDeleteS
I am not sure why are assured that I haven't! Holy, assumptions, batman!
ReplyDeleteYou know, you claim in your first line that you are not defensive and yet you take things so personally…..yes, that does indeed give me something to chew on.
very small sample set and use it as if it were universal.
And your sample set of hummm, yourself and perhaps your friends whom you claim to speak for has more credibility?
I don't see "my friend thinks that this is what swinging is about."
Since I have never said at any point that this is what “my friend thinks” your following comments are not valid.
who was very experienced in the life style might have seen an inkling of it.
I don’t know what your experiences are, you could have a far more closed and narrow experience than the people I know, I certainly have no reason to take your word over theirs do I? I know them, I don’t know you.
if you are going to sort of play holier than though in he process.
My darling, I at no point played Holier than thou, that is your skewed version of what I wrote, I haven’t a problem with sex for sex sake and never have, I was making a comparison, I am sorry that you take issue with it but that is not my problem, it is yours.
Good day.
N
Just wanted to repost this from our front page.
ReplyDelete-A PolyGlot represents our opinions but is in no way intended to be prescriptive. Everyone is an individual, so what suits one person or relationship will not necessarily suit another.
Can you please accept that I am writing from my pov and you need not accept it nor do you have to read it.
I would appreciate if you found another venue to argue in.
Thank you.